Grâce à la liberté dans les communications, des groupes d’hommes de même nature pourront se réunir et fonder des communautés. Les nations seront dépassées.
Friedrich Nietzsche (Fragments posthumes XIII-883)

10 - JAN 13 - Interv. Tribunal


 
Rencontre avec la presse (sortie du tribunal)
Lisbonne - 13 janvier 2010


Gerald McCann : Obviously, as you all know, to… the trial over the last, errr... two days and continuing tomorrow is really about Mr Amaral's book and DVD and how we feel that relates to the ongoing search for Madeleine. I'd like to remind everyone that it's the book that is on trial and not Kate and I.
Right from Day One, after Madeleine was taken, Kate and I fully understood the need for us to be investigated and we consider that a matter of course and you may remember that we spent all day on the 4th of May at the police station in Portimão and I subsequently spent a lot of time there. We stayed in Portugal during this period, right through to September, in an effort to aid the investigation. We also understood that every thesis had to be considered and we felt strongly that we had been eliminated from the investigation. (1)
For those of you who have followed this case, when things, errr... turned sour for us in August, of 2007, we didn't disappear, we stayed. We waited until we had our arguido interviews, even though that we did wish to return home, because we felt that was the right thing to do. (2) We did wish for a reconstruction to be done, very early on, as would be the norm, errr... and certainly within the United Kingdom and we were prepared to come back to participate in the reconstruction, in fact we would have been obliged as arguidos to come back and participate and it wasn't our decision not to do it, although, I have to say, I don't think it would have helped very much in the search for Madeleine. (3)
Over the last two days, I think you've heard a lot about Mr Amaral's thesis that Madeleine is dead and I hope you've also heard that there is absolutely no evidence to support that thesis. A thesis without evidence is meaningless and that is what we are challenging. We strongly believe and, in fact, as a direct result of the searches - which were actually directed at finding a missing body in and around Praia da Luz and the surrounding terrain - the fact that this thesis, which has been tried to be proved quite firmly, has not found any harm to Madeleine is actually, in many ways, reassuring and gives us more evidence that Madeleine is probably alive. (4)
And I hope everyone remembers that there is a little girl missing, who still needs to be found, and we will keep going until Madeleine is found and also until whoever has taken her is brought to justice and, in response to the question earlier on, that is why we carry on, and we have other children who miss Madeleine dearly and we will be able to look them in the eye and say that we have done everything to help that search. 

UK Reporter : How emotionally...
GMC : I have to return to England today, I have work commitments that I couldn't cancel at short notice. I will be leaving, Kate'll be staying on and, errm... I'll take a few questions.
UKR : Gerry, how... how emotionally draining has the last few days been? Do you feel that it has actually given maybe the Portuguese police and even, errr... the media an opportunity to re... errr... to... well, to bring some old theories back to, errr... back to the surface?"
GMC : I think what's been important is that things are being debated in a rational way in a court of law and that is the place where it should happen and that is where evidence is judged and can be done so within a legal framework. From our point of view what's happened in the last two days is, I suppose, in many ways, expected - these are Gonçalo Amaral's witnesses. I think it is particularly disappointing that certain police officers within Portimão, who considered us as possibly involved in Madeleine's disappearance, have not been able to change their mind, despite a lack of evidence, and it is these officers who have, are... who we are dependent on for pursuing the investigation within Portugal. (5)

Sandra Felgueiras : Gerry do you also believe that the...
GMC : There is one real reason why we've come here and why we've taken this action and this why it is [indicates the poster] it's our daughter who is missing, and who deserves justice for a fair search. The laws of a democracy are there to protect the vulnerable in society, our daughter is vulnerable, our twins are vulnerable. Given what you've heard in court over the days of this trial, we want to appeal to the Portuguese people again, to come forward with any information that may lead us to help find Madeleine, or any other information that might be related to Madeleine's abduction. The number here is 800 814 024. [some journalist asks something to Kate McCann] Pardon. (6)
Kate McCann : [unintelligible]
GMC : Thank you.

UK rep. : Tell us about those criminal proceedings that you're starting.
GMC : Can't comment on that.
SF : But do you think that the PJ is not investigating important leads that could help you to find Madeleine?
GMC : I think you've heard detective Paiva's testimony and that speaks for itself. There's one thesis that's being investigated here more than any other, that hasn't come up with any evidence, and the important thing is that there is an innocent child missing and that search must go on. We would very much like the whole process reviewed, we would like all information held by all law enforcements to be put together and systematically reviewed and identified areas for further investigation. (7)

UK rep. : Are you going to review that Gerry?
SF : We were said that that notice the PJ received had inclusively photos from Madeleine or eventually from some child...
GMC : [refuses to answer, turns head to another direction] Pardon , sorry?
SF : ...have you seen that photo?
UK rep. : Who do you want to do that review with?
GMC : The most well-qualified people capable of doing it.
UK rep. : Who, who is that?

UK rep. : Mrs. McCann, how difficult has this trial been for you?
KMC : It's obviously been difficult to hear all these allegations again, and, but is reassuring again to be demonstrated publicly that there is no evidence that Madeleine has come to any harm. (8)
UK rep. : Kate do you feel...
KMC : And I really do want to ask Portuguese people to continue to help us, please, there's a little girl still missing regardless of what Mr. Amaral and his followers say, and they have their own motives. There's a little girl still missing, and we know that people care about children, please help us. (9)

PT reporter : You are asking Portuguese people to come forward, what do you have to say if they ask you 'why are you not re-opening the case'?
Member of the public : That is the question, that's the one.
GMC : [looks startled] (10)
KMC : [answers another journalist question - unintelligible]
GMC : We'd be delighted if the case was re-opened, we have no problem with that, but what we need is real investigation, not this, not dismissal...
PT report. : Did you already do anything? Take any steps to open the case?
GMC : We, we have sent information through, at the authorities both in England and through the PJ here. It's the prosecutors decision when to re-open the case.
PT report. : Did you get a reply then?
GMC : What we need is. What we need is and this is very, very clear. What we need is new leads, new information. We believe that information has not gone into the inquiry and we want it all systematically examined under one review panel. (11)

UK rep. : Gerry would you want that, would that be the British police? Do you want a British review panel?
PT report. : A reconstruction. If you volunteer to do a reconstruction wouldn't that open the case?
GMC : We want to create information that will lead us to us helping find Madeleine. (12)
PT report. : That will help Madeleine. Don't you think so?
GMC : Well if it does then, you know, we will participate.
PT report. : You are in Lisbon. You could take that step today. Ask for the case to be reopened and do a reconstruction with your friends.
GMC : We are going round in circles. We would be more than happy for the case to be reopened. (13) 


UK rep. : Gerry to clarify the, we are talking about this review. Its quite interesting. Is that something you would want the British police to do? A review of the entire thing.
GMC : We'll take whoever's prepared to do it and whoever has the most expertise and obviously we want the Portuguese and British authorities to cooperate in such a review.

PT report. : You are asking the Portuguese people to come forward but you are not doing it?
GMC : We don't know when new information is going to come forward. There are many cases as you know of, of children who have been missing for years who have subsequently been discovered. And it's when that piece of information falls into place that the children are found. And if people believe, erm, unnecessarily that Madeleine's dead without any evidence then we'll never find her. (14)
SF : Are you sure that after this court that public opinion in Portugal will change?
GMC : It depends what your question really relates to. It's not a popularity contact, er contest. It's about finding Madeleine.
SF : You claim that the finding of Madeleine has been damaged with all this Gonçalo Amaral thesis but I'm asking you if this decision will be something like you wish to happen, do you think after that, after this step it will be better for you?
GMC : I think it will be a step in the right direction. It's about Madeleine. It's not about us. It's about this girl. She's missing. She needs to be found and we are doing everything in our power to aid that search.

UK rep. : Gerry, have you formally asked anyone to start a review?
GMC : We are happy to ask now.
UK rep. : But before today is it something you have formally asked.
GMC : We are asking behind the scenes all the time, many different things. Of course we want all the information reviewed. It's sensible. It would be done in any other major inquiry. There is a situation we have been advised of in Portugal. But, you know, we want the information reviewed. We want it. It's an unsolved case. It's really important. You would expect that. There is a little girl missing. We must find her, We must do everything in our power. Just because it is hard doesn't mean we give up. We are not gonna give up. (15)
Member of the public : Why not do the reconstruction then ? Why not do the reconstruction, why?

SF : Isabel Duarte told to the court that she felt you were under a judgement these days. Do you still feel or did you feel that today you were under a judgement?
GMC : What's important is the judge's decision. I think that is the objectivity of it not biased opinion. You know, evidence has to be looked at objectively. There is no evidence Madeleine's dead. As far as we are concerned she's still out there. (16)
PT report. : Wouldn't you say that someone who accepts that there was an abduction is also biased? It's just one side of the question.
GMC : Aye. Obviously all possibilities have to be considered and they were considered. One was pursued much more aggressively than any other lead. But you know we weren't there on our own. We weren't in isolation. There were many many people around us. There are many different witnesses that seem to get forgotten about and only negative, er, testimony seems to .... (17)
PT report. : But that is part of life isn't it? There is always someone who has a different opinion. 

GMC : We are here. We are standing here in front of you. We are visible. The abductor is not.
PT report. : The abductor?!
GMC : We need to find that person and...
KMC : Yes. The abductor is not.
GMC : ... and those that are responsible.
PT report. : What evidence do you have that there was an abduction? Can I ask this question because you say that Amaral doesn't have....
KMC : I know. I was here. I found my daughter gone. I know more than you do. I know what I saw. (18)
PT report. : I'm not saying. I don't know anything. I'm just telling from a point of view where I don't know who to believe. I just want evidence like you say.
GMC : Where is the child? We are looking for that evidence. Where is the child? What other explanation can explain how she is not here?   (19)

KMC : So(???) do you agree it shouldn't be be ruled out? Do you?
PT report. : Other people have advanced other explanations. That's why we are here.
GMC : Okay. Any other questions before we go because we've got a flight to catch?
KMC : Could you just remember there is a little girl missing and we need everybody's help.
SF : Are you planning to come on the..., next week?
GMC : Er. No.
SF : Why not?
GMC : I can't. I've got work commitments.

UK report. : Gerry, do you want to do ???? now.... for the press???
SF : How many legal actions are you planning to put in Portugal?
GMC : If you speak to Isabel. We take all our advice from Isabel regarding further actions.
Isabel Duarte : As many as necessary.

UK report. : Will you show it this way?
PT report. : Gerry what's your next step?
UK report. : Gerry and Kate this way please, this way. In the middle please. Gerry and Kate, thank you.
UK rep. : Sorry Mrs McCann, are you intending to come next week? Your husband can't so....
KMC : I've got no plans to come next week, no.

PT report. : What will you do if the judge forwards the complaint and asks for the re-opening of the case?
GMC : Thank you.
ID : Questions about the legal actions are with me.

William Kentridge - Son absence a rempli le monde

(1) On se souvient aussi que Gerald a demandé à s'asseoir derrière Kate lors de la déposition de cette dernière, une pratique peu courante en fait d'investigation.. On se souvient aussi que Kate MC s'est dérobée à la seconde déposition, celle du 10 mai. On se souvient encore que Gerald a changé sa narration des faits entre le 4 et le 10 mai. Et puis, ils l'ont déclaré publiquement maintes fois, ils sont restés au Portugal parce qu'ils s'y sentaient plus près de Madeleine.
(2) Selon son blog d'août 2007, tout allait bien et la notification à comparaître, début septembre, fut une surprise...
(3) La norme portugaise (et française) en fait de reconstitution a peu de choses à voir avec la norme britannique en fait de reconstruction. Gerald MC ne devrait pas l'ignorer, compte tenu de l'imposante équipe légale tant au Portugal qu'au Royaume-Uni. Et puis qui croira que les compagnons de voyage des MC, si désireux de faire tout ce qui pourrait aider à trouver Madeleine, aient délibérément saboté un projet de reconstitution du Ministère public auquel les MC tenaient?
(4) Il n'y a certes pas de preuve que Madeleine soit morte dans l'appartement 5A, mais il n'y a pas plus de preuve qu'elle en soit sortie vivante de son plein gré ou enlevée. L'argument selon lequel une thèse sans preuve n'a pas de sens se retourne comme un gant contre les MC et leur thèse d'enlèvement sans preuve. Adhérer à la croyance des MC en une Madeleine probablement vivante en raison de l'absence de corps est un acte de foi. On est fort loin du rationnel.
(5) On est à la limite de la diffamation. Gerald MC insinue que des policiers "se sont faits des idées" et sont prêts à tout pour ne pas avoir à en démordre, comme à mettre à la poubelle toute information contraire qui leur parviendrait. Ce qui fait défaut dans cette logique est le motif. Qu'auraient ces policiers à y gagner ?
(6) Gerald MC coupe la parole, il n'est manifestement pas là pour répondre aux questions, mais pour faire savoir un certain nombre de choses. 
(7) Non seulement la PJ ne fait pas son boulot (aucune allusion n'est faite au rejet de la phase d'instruction par les MC, l'instruction visant à préciser les positions, notamment à travers un débat contradictoire), mais cette négligence est criminelle puisqu'il y a une enfant perdue de vue, donc comme abandonnée.
(8) Rien de tel n'a été démontré ni n'est démontrable. La présence de sang de Madeleine ne prouverait pas que sa vie est/a été en danger. L'absence de sang ne prouve pas que son intégrité ait été préservée au cours de l'enlèvement.
(9) "ils ont leurs raisons" est lourd de menaces.  
(10) La question est embarrassante car l'enquête a été classée faute de demande d'instruction.
(11) Les Portugais sont des incapables, la preuve en est qu'ils ne font rien des informations qui leur parviennent.
(12) Étrange formulation : "nous voulons créer de l'information qui nous conduira..."
(13) Gerald semble, oui, tourner en rond. Après avoir vanté la revue et dénigré la PJ, il prétend souhaiter une réouverture.
(14) Non, personne ne sait que beaucoup d'enfants disparus pendant des années sont retrouvés, et si personne ne sait c'est qu'il n'y a pratiquement pas d'enfant retrouvé grâce à la fameuse pièce manquante du puzzle. Les deux cas récents, Natascha Kampusch et Jaycee Dugard  avaient 9/10 ans quand elles ont été enlevées dans la rue et elles ont été les instruments de leur libération.
(15) Et pourtant ils ont abandonné, et Kate a même dit que c'était un soulagement, quand ils n'ont pas requis la phase d'instruction. Il serait aberrant qu'une affaire non instruite soit revue. Pourtant une sorte de revue eut lieu (à Porto), à l'insu et au grand dam du Ministère public 
(16) Le journaliste portugais ne rétorque pas "as well there is no evidence Madeleine isn't dead", mais on n'est pas loin.
 (17) Qu'ils ressentent comme agressive toute théorie différente de la leur parce que, vrai, seule la leur, l'enlèvement, les innocente, est une chose, mais aucune théorie n'est en soi agressive.
 (18) Le journaliste a appelé un chat un chat et laissé entendre que le ravisseur était une pure vue de l'esprit, ce qui a eu pour effet de crisper Kate MC sur un obstiné et arbitraire "j'étais là, j'en sais plus que vous, j'ai vu".
 (19) C'est l'argument des arguments, celui que Gerald utilise quand il se croit tenu d'être définitif : où est l'enfant ? quelle autre explication que l'enlèvement peut-il y avoir au fait qu'elle n'est pas là ? On pense à Pamela Fenn, étonnée que Gerald MC lui ait dit qu'une petite fille avait été enlevée, au lieu de "ma petite fille..."






Reportage RTP
Pivot: Gerry McCann repudiated the PJ Inspectors who stated in court that their daughter Madeleine is dead. The father of the child disappeared in the Algarve, accuses therefore the Inspector Ricardo Paiva of lying, when he said that his wife Kate called him, in the summer of 2007, telling that she had a dream where her daughter was dead and buried at hill in Praia da Luz. The PJ inspector said that this dream was decisive to change the course of investigations.
Voice over (Sandra Felgueiras): After yesterdays absolute silence, Gerry and Kate arrived at the civil court at 9:30 am, ready to blow off steam.
SF: How did you support hearing the inspectors repeating that Madeleine is dead and that you are involved?
Gerry McCann: The most important thing yesterday was what the prosecutor said, there's absolutely no evidence that Madeleine is dead.

Voice Over: At the same moment Gonçalo Amaral made a completely different assessment of the statements given yesterday by the former investigation colleagues. And even by the actual Nº2 of the PJ.
Gonçalo Amaral: Since yesterday I'm not the only one speaking, I can't say anything further since I'm in a injunction, so, about certain facts it's not only me talking. I'm not alone regarding that.

SF: Moita Flores ended up proving or corroborating, in the morning, that Madeleine couldn't have been abducted without any traces. During two hours, via video-conference, the former PJ inspector and actual Mayor of Santarém, praised the work done by the investigators of Madeleine's case, the same ones that Gerry McCann didn't spare criticism on his way out of the court, to go to London.
GM: It's particularly disappointing that certain police officers, withing Portimão, who considered us as possibly being involved in Madeleine's disappearence, have not been able to change their mind, inspite the lack of evidences. And it is this officers we are depending on for pursuing the investigation within Portugal.
GM: I would like to make absolutely clear that Kate has never had a dream, that Madeleine was buried somewhere. And, I don't know if something has been lost in interpretation, but that didn't happen.

Voice Over: Gerry declared untrue in this manner the sworn statement given yesterday by the inspector Ricardo Paiva, who, to the court explained that Kate's dream, that was told to him on the phone, two months later after the disappearance was crucial for the PJ to start investigating the hypothesis of the child being dead.
GM: We are not under trial, not at all. people may want to say that, but we were exonerated.[cut] The PJ tried... What was seen very clearly is that one thesis in particular tried to be proven, possibly more than any other.

SF: Do you think they were competent?
GM: (looks above SF) And there's no evidence to support it.
SF: Where they competent to you?
GM: (looks the other way) Sorry...

Sandra Felgueiras: He never criticized openly the Judiciary police but he implicitly made known what he thinks. Gerry McCann left this court at 4:30 pm, behind leaves Kate, who will be joined still today by Fiona Payne, one of the friends of the couple that was with them at the time of Madeleine's disappearence. The hearing will continue and end tomorrow.

Voice Over (unknown journalist): They arrived before 10am and decided to talk to journalists.
Gerry McCann: The same, to continue to fight for Madeleine, the search and to protect her family.
Sandra Felgueiras: How did you support hearing the inspectors repeating that Madeleine is dead and that you are involved?
Gerry McCann: The most important thing yesterday was what the prosecutor said, there's absolutely no evidence that Madeleine is dead.
SF: But then you heard...
GM: Let me finish, please. There's absolutely no evidence that Madeleine is dead, and there's absolutely no evidence that were involved in her disappearence. That is the conclusion...
SF: Three people saying...
GM: That is the conclusion of the process, and that's what we're here debating.

Voice over: In the first session, that lasted more than 9 hours, Gonçalo Amaral's witnesses defended that the book 'Maddie, A Verdade da Mentira' only exposes facts that pertain to the process. All of them sustained the thesis that the British child is dead and that the parents hid the cadaver. The hearing continues with Moita Flores statement, via video-conference, he is the last witness requested by Gonçalo Amaral to be heard. The former PJ inspector says that he is not alone and believes that the book will be back on the bookshops.
Gonçalo Amaral: If I didn't believe it, then I wouldn't believe in this Country's Justice, I wouldn't have started the opposition, so, we have to trust.
Sandra Felgueiras: How have you faced the McCann couple?
GA: How? In a natural way.

SF: I want to ask you if you were satisfied for having heard the inspectors that repeated the thesis that you shared on the book?
Gonçalo Amaral: Since yesterday, I'm not the only one speaking, I can't say anything further since I'm in a injunction, so, about certain facts it's not only me talking. I'm not alone regarding that.

Voice over: The McCanns allege that the book 'A Verdade da Mentira' and the documentary broadcast by TVI divulge a thesis which they consider unsustainable, and that is hampering the search of the child. The provisional measure was decreed in September, the Court will decide if the book will ever be commercialized again.



Témoignage de Francisco Moita Flores 
Sandra Felgueiras - RTP1 - 13.01.2010
traduit par Astro
 
I would say that during the two hours that his deposition lasted, by videoconference, Moita Flores produced a treaty on freedom, on criminal investigation and on truth. A treaty on freedom because what is at stake, here, is the duality of rights that are part of our Republic's constitution: on one hand, the right to freedom of expression, expressed by Gonçalo Amaral, and on the other hand, the McCann couple's right to a reputation and to dignity.
And concerning this conflicting duality, Moita Flores was peremptory: he thinks it is "pathetic" and "an aberration" that in a democracy, someone's right to write a truth that he says he has reached, is put at stake. And even when judge Maria Gabriela Cunha Rodrigues asked him if he thinks it's legitimate for an inspector, after retiring, and after having privileged access to information, to write, to publicise it, he [Moita Flores] said "I don't see why that can't happen, even because nobody else in Portugal has been dragged through the mud by the British press, like Gonçalo Amaral was, therefore he is in his full right”.
He even said "I don't know what I would do if I was in his shoes; if anyone had told me or written that my wife is a prostitute and I, a drunk. I know that Gonçalo Amaral is a good policeman, and that is why I came here to testify". Such were the words of Moita Flores.

Then, why do I mention a treaty on criminal investigation? Because for several times, Isabel Duarte has tried to discredit the book, and therefore, at the same time, the criminal investigation, and she tried to tell Moita Flores, or rather ask him, if he knew the location, the window through which the abduction could have taken place in Praia da Luz. He replied, in his own voice, that he was on location, and that he was absolutely certain that it was materially impossible for an abductor to leave through that window – unless the child was dead.
This is due to there being no possibility for anyone to exit through that window without leaving natural traces, which is to say, without leaving marks, and that is the line that investigators follow. Therefore, in this way, he tried to credit, contradicting the McCanns' thesis that the only possibility was abduction. And he even said that he does not believe that any competent investigator in the world easily accepts that anyone tries to impose a sole thesis on him. And the McCanns came here to try to impose one sole thesis on Portuguese justice, the thesis that they believe in, the abduction thesis. And he says that Gonçalo Amaral could not resign himself to this possibility.

Finally, a thesis about truth. A thesis about truth because Moita Flores came to this court to say that the absolute truth belongs only to God. The truth that belongs to men is a dynamic truth, a truth that is gradually obtained. This because when he was questioned several times about the legitimacy of discussing a thesis that the Public Prosecutor did not reach, he even said: "The Public Ministry had an opinion. That does not mean that there could not be another one". And Isabel Duarte told him, at the end: "But there are people here who have been absolutely murdered on the public square". And Moita Flores finalised by saying: "So was Gonçalo Amaral".
As a conclusion, I would say that it was a demolishing testimony in front of judge Gabriela Cunha Rodrigues, who by the way is the daughter of former Attorney General Cunha Rodrigues; it will be up to her to decide whether or not to keep this injunction in place, which removed the book "Truth of the Lie" from the market last September.

In this way, Moita Flores joins the choir of former inspectors, and even the joint national director, Luís Neves, who came here yesterday to state again that all of them, together, and including the Public Ministry, shared the thesis that Madeleine was dead, and that the McCann couple was involved in concealment of the cadaver.
They all said, in one voice, that Gonçalo Amaral's book focuses on everything that is included in the investigation, and that they do not see, in any way, that the contents of the book may be influencing public opinion in the sense of disturbing the search for Madeleine and putting her survival at stake. These are the two main issues that the injunction is based upon, and it was due to these two allegations from the McCann couple's defence that the judge who previously judged the injunction decided to take the book off the market.
In the afternoon, we will hear José Manuel Anes, currently the vice president of the Security Laboratory, he is a witness that was summoned by editor Guerra & Paz, the editor that published the book "Truth of the Lie".