Grâce à la liberté dans les communications, des groupes d’hommes de même nature pourront se réunir et fonder des communautés. Les nations seront dépassées.
Friedrich Nietzsche (Fragments posthumes XIII-883)

10 - MAI 3/4 - Mañanas de Cuatro



3 años sin MMC
03 et 04.05.2010 - TVE /Las Mañanas de Cuatro (C. Campoy)
à 12'50 raconte le whoosh des rideaux
traduit par Mercedes



Les MC ont marqué le troisième anniversaire de la disparition de MMC en accordant une interview à TVE ("Las Mañanas de Cuatro"). Concha Garcia Campoy, présentatrice du programme, a été invitée à passer un week-end chez les MC, à Rothley.

"The interview was taped over the weekend and will be broadcast from next Monday," said an official of "Las Mañanas de Cuatro" adding that the case will be examined by several police officers, experts and journalists who were linked to the case. According to an unconfirmed source, Gonçalo Amaral, former coordinator of the PJ who led the investigation into the disappearance of Maddie, will also be on the set.



Communiqué de presse
"There she was curled up against me. Then she took my engagement ring... She used to do this many times and put it... She put it as we read the story.... She is wonderful, what I can say." So Kate McCann recalls the last moments spent with her daughter. Next Monday marks the third anniversary of the disappearance of Madeleine. Three years in which her parents have not stopped looking for her. "Las Mañanas de Cuatro" celebrates 750 programs on the air with an exclusive of worldwide interest. Concha Garcia Campoy has gone to Rothley (England) to interview the McCanns and know how is their day to day without Maddie. Kate and Gerry have responded, without censorship, to all our questions. They talk about the doubts that still surround the case and their relationship with Gonçalo Amaral, the Portuguese policeman who was in charge of the investigation and who has always considered them suspects.
"In my mind it is very clear that a man took Madeleine and we have to find him to know where my daughter is. That the police don't search for that man but suspect me and Gerry ... That hurts me." Kate and Gerry McCann tell us each point of their version of what happened that night. They categorically denied they had medicated children ("It's a shame that this was published. It has no basis. It's a lie") although they admit they could have made a mistake leaving them alone to go to dinner with a group of friends. "The guilt will never leave us, we made a mistake and we repeated it several nights in a row ... We never thought our children were in danger." They say that they have never hidden to Sean and Amelie, Maddie's brother and sister; what happened. "A psychologist told us to answer honestly all their questions ... We explained to them about the kidnapping, saying that if we want something we should not take it if it belongs to others. And they understood it. As a robbery." Quelle explication !
Three years after the disappearance of Madeleine, the McCanns do not give up. They say they will continue to fight "the time it takes." Currently, they are intending that the British police reopen the investigation.We celebrate 750 mornings together ... with new and interesting stories.
  

Première partie - 3 mai-  (n'est plus en ligne)


Concha García Campoy : The McCanns answer for Las Mañanas de Cuatro the most controversial issues, the suspicion falling on them. They were accused of having drugged their children
Kate MC : It's a shame that such information has been published without any basis, it’s a lie, what more can I say? 
CGC : They were accused of being responsible for the disappearance of Madeleine
Gerry MC : The way the leaking of the accusations was handled, the lies that the media turned to give an impression that we were guilty, the disappearance of our daughter, was especially difficult.

CGC : They were accused of withholding evidence. The McCanns show their faces and respond to all these accusations in Las Mañanas de Cuatro.
Indeed, today we ask the most controversial questions, the most difficult ones. The answers here in “Las Mañanas de Cuatro”. Jerome Boloix is here at this table and Alfonso Egea, good morning. Next we are going to show the interview that the McCanns have given us, with the most controversial questions, with the doubts that haven’t been disclosed yet, we will raise them first, are these:
Voice off : Today, in our program, the McCanns answer all the doubts that have surrounded the case since Madeleine’s disappearance, and which point to them as suspects. Case managers in Portugal claim that there is no evidence that the child has been abducted, as argued by the McCanns.

Gonçalo Amaral : (clip) The main hypothesis is that it was a domestic accident. She was a light sleeper, sedated or not by her parents, woke up, she tried to reach the window and fell off the couch killing herself.
CGC : I was very impressed that it was said at some point they had drugged the children...
Paulo Sargento : (clip) Their interpretation is contrary to the death although there is evidence, cadaver odour, the smell of human blood and there is a set of forensic evidence that indicates, unfortunately, that the child is dead.
Narrateur : Gonçalo Amaral claims that there are witnesses who saw Gerry McCann carrying a child's body the night of Madeleine’s disappearance.
GA : (clip) An Irish family met with a man that was carrying a child’s body in his arms. When they saw Gerry coming off the plane also with his child, said they were sure, to eighty percent, it was the same man they had seen just after Madeleine’s disappearance. (1)
Narrateur : There are also other questions, alleged pressure from the British Embassy to defend the abduction thesis, contradictions in the McCanns and their friends statements about what happened that night and even basic elements in any research that even weren’t done.
GA : (clip) Here there are many things left to do, if the McCann couple have so much desire to reopen the investigation, they can start with the reconstitution, they can do it both alone, it would be very, very interesting.

CGC : Do you want the reopening of the investigation of your daughter’s case, of Madeleine’s case?
Narrateur : According to some members of the investigation, the McCanns are not in prison because of their political contacts
PS : (clip) I’m sure that if it were a Portuguese couple there would have been a different treatment and forensic evidence would have been formed as evidence and probably, probably, the couple would be in prison.

CGC : There was some evidence gathered in the apartment, also in the car you had rented, do you know something about the results of these tests?
Narrateur : Now for the first time the McCanns show their faces and face all these accusations

CGC : Come at once to hear the McCann’s answers to these questions, but in fact the Portuguese investigation, Gonçalo Amaral speak about forensic evidence, about evidence that they are hiding something, is it so clear?
Jerome Boloix : Let's see, there is evidence, because the dogs that went over there, which belong to the English police and not to the Portuguese police, detected without any doubt corpse odour and also the scent of human blood in certain places, behind the sofa, in the McCann’s closet and in the car they rented 25 days later. The samples that were collected were analyzed in the Birmingham’s laboratory and they replied that after analyzing the DNA from the blood that was collected there, 15 of the 19 markers have a complete correspondence with Madeleine, without any doubt.
Alfonso Egea : This is irrefutable, it’s objective science, and we're tired of saying it, now I want to invite people to think with common sense, Madeleine McCann’s mother washed a cuddly toy that was a crucial evidence, she never explained why. Madeleine McCann's mother and father were called for a reconstitution, that is the most normal thing in the world, to see what had happened that night, nothing more, but they never wanted to do it. Portuguese police goes a step further and say, okay, we cannot prove their guilt but let's use the figure of arguido, we are going to constitute them official suspects. What did Kate and Gerry McCann do immediately after leaving the police station? Leave the country, go back to England. All this, I want people to understand it, it’s not about saying that they are bad guys, that they are guilty, no, but everything that this couple does is discordant with what any other parent in a similar situation would do, nothing more than that.

CGC : Now let's see the concrete answers but José really as forensics, forensic evidence as one part of the Portuguese police say, not all, but an important part of those who led the research, do they exist?
José Cabrera : Objective and conclusive forensic evidence, really as such at 100 percent don’t exist, because otherwise the judicial process would have advanced. What happens is that in the absence of a body ... DNA is a 80 percent, they say dogs can do mistakes about body odour...
Cristina Fernández : We also don’t have Marta del Castillo’s body and we have two people in prison, then the absence of bodies is not always... but if the prosecutor has all the documentation in the world... but I understand, as someone with no expertise, that if there is evidence, DNA, scent of corpse, evidence against the parents, witnesses contradictions, these persons should have been charged.
CGC : Let's leave these questions for now because they will receive responses from the McCanns and we will analyze them here.I'm still here at the table with Jerónimo Boloix, Cristina Fernández, Alfonso Egea, José Cabrera. Indeed, we have asked some of the most controversial questions to the McCanns, this is their most sincere interview.

CGC : I'd like to ask two or three questions about the doubts raised during the investigation, I understand that it’s a bit painful, it’s said that you haven’t collaborated in the reconstitution of the facts, neither your friends.
GMC : Especially some of our friends, if we analyze the way they were treated, they thought that this reconstruction was not going to help find Madeleine. (2) No one wanted to do anything and amongst our friends there were who thought it was going to be a complete media circus. (3)
KMC : We also asked about the possibility of doing a reconstruction with actors which is obviously what we do in our reconstructions, I mean in the UK there is a program called Crime Watch, which uses actors to reconstruct crimes because it’s harmful to ask people who have gone through a so traumatic experience to re-live it. (4)

CGC : Some evidence were gathered in the apartment, also in the car you rented, do you know the results of those tests?
GMC : They essentially didn't prove anything, there were fragments of DNA ... that the forensic experts said came from at least five different people. The forensics’ report is absolutly clear, it says that none of these samples was evidence of nothing, it was said there was blood but they've not identified it as blood (scratches head).

CGC : Why do you think that the former head of the investigation, Gonçalo Amaral, wants to prove that you are guilty?
GMC : (Turning his hand over his head) To be honest I don’t really want to talk about this because one can speculate about his motives, but the important thing is that there is no evidence that Madeleine is dead and that we were involved. What Mr Amaral has done and his record speak for themselves.

CGC : These are some of the most remarkable questions, what do you think? Perhaps the part of the reconstruction... Why don’t they want to do the reconstruction? It particularly struck me as one of the weakest parts; I think that at some point you have to be there, right? Even though there is a media circus that nobody has started.
JB : No, no. Yes, the parents started it, they stared it. This is a media and global disappearance because the parents, from the outset when the girl disappeared, allegedly, the first call they made was to Sky News not to the police. (5) From there on we all know what...
CGC : They say that is not true.
JB : It's true because there is a call log. But let's analyze the issue of the reconstitution. The issue of reconstitution when there are certain witnesses who did not coincide on the narrative of events, it is absolutely necessary to do it because the police and the judges will know on the spot what each one has done and they will also relate to them. It is absolutely impossible to do this with actors, the MCs don’t see clearly that this is a police and judicial investigation, not a media issue, they say there's a TV show, well, they can do all the television they want. The police needs to do this to find evidence that some of the witnesses are lying and on the other hand, just to finish, it is striking that they have refused and their friends have refused, but they did participate in a reconstruction made for a TV documentary, they did participate in that one. (6)

CGC : Cannot a court order be made compelling their friends and them to participate in that reconstruction in situ?
JC : If the reconstruction is ordered by a judge it’s mandatory. What happens here is that they are English in another country that is not their country and in this case the judge felt the vest before forcing them.
CF : I want to ask something else, like you see flaws in the part of the reconstitution, don’t you also see flaws in the police operation? That is, you are saying that at first they refused to do the reconstitution, and as you say at that time would have been better, weren’t there also failures when the police arrived at the apartment...?
AE : Almost no police investigation, and that Jerónimo can attest, has a good start. I mean, you have to open the entire range of possibilities and among all the possibilities you have...
CF : Yes, but did they do it right or was it wrongly done?
AE and JB : They did everything that had to be done...
CF : So OK to the Portuguese police.
JB : We also have to add a rider. After 24 hours of disappearance of the girl, the English police arrived to Portugal, since then absolutely, absolutely until they (the McCanns) leave and literally flee from Portugal...

CGC : Just a moment Jerónimo, because they also told us, they told us many things because it was a lengthy interview, that it took them (the police) 50 minutes to arrive. (7)
JB : It is possible, I don't have this data, it may have taken them 50 minutes to arrive. In those 50 minutes I guess that in absence of the police, they and their friends began to look for the girl, but nobody went looking for the girl, they all sat in the living room and on bed where the girl was allegedly sleeping waiting for the police to arrive. Let's put ourselves in a situation, if someone arrives to the apartment and finds their daughter missing, they start looking for her like a madman, shouting so everyone comes to look. But on the other hand, I would like to continue underpinning that, after 24 hours the British police arrived and someone from the first instance, until the last moment, the Portuguese police and British police acted/worked jointly in the investigation of this case.
AE : Let's see, talking about the police taking 50 minutes to arrive, is an issue that in this particular case is not as relevant as it may seem, the actions are carried out as in any other case. To me there is something else that catches my attention watching the interview, I see a total change of registration as to gestures, tones and words they use, did you sense a change at the moment you said, be careful, I’m going on with hard questions?
CGC : Yes, and I warned them, normally in the interviews we don’t warn when we are going to launch the gun question, but in this case, obviously, I feared that they got up from the chair because there are precedents, that’s why I warned them, I’m going to ask these questions, I warn you, I warned them only for healing and health and this was the manner to get them responding it all. I would like us to see more of that interview because they insist very insistently on the theory of abduction, they "deny the greatest item" (Game of the Mus) about the Portuguese police thesis.


CGC : Do you want to reopen the investigation into the case of your daughter Madeleine?
KMC : A little girl is still missing, you know, this case is not closed, you know, it's almost like saying "oh well, we'll see what we can find", bad luck we haven’t found her, it is necessary to review all information.
GMC : I just think that this is unacceptable, that the parents of a girl have to drive the investigation. (8)
CGC : I was very impressed at some point when they said that you had drugged the children, I suppose it was one of the most serious allegation made against you.
KMC : Well, again that's a total lie, errr is a shame it was ever put into the media and I think it's of interest that, errrr... our doctor had never been contacted, I mean, it's a lie, it has no basis; it’s all a lie, what more can I say?
GMC : You know, you can go over lots of things, there were many things published and clearly some things could have been made up, some could have come from the Internet. Other people who have gone through terrible tragedies and been exposed to the media have gone through similar things. Before, journalism had credibility, but now they seek quick profits, no matter how damaging it is to people.

CGC : This is a question for both but especially for Kate, the Portuguese police interrogations, have they been particularly hard?
KMC : The questioning was one of those situations that I never believed we would ever be in. A man has taken Madeleine and we have to find him to find Madeleine and the fact that the police is not looking for that man but suspecting me and Gerry, well, that hurts me (Video Madeleine images) (9) 
GMC : Identifying that person is what we have to do at this stage, but whoever took Madeleine is still out there, then other children are at risk. How could we participate in her "kidnapping"? We had no vehicle or anything. The leaks, smears and lies that were put in the media to try to give an image that we were guilty errr... was particularly hard, but the... it wasn't as bad as the night we found her. (10)

CGC : Well, these are testimonies that cause a different reaction in each other. What do you think?
AE : Very good everything they’ve said. In first place, reassure the public, the alleged kidnapper of Madeleine McCann has had three years of inactivity, he has not kidnapped anyone else despite Gerry McCann’s claims that there is a man without putting any evidence on the table. There is one fact I think that sometimes has been magnified by the word that is used, drugged, is not the same to drug than to give medication to a child, Kate McCann forgets she stated to Portuguese police that that night... was your daughter being treated? (11) “Yes, I gave her some painkillers, she has a very light sleep is a very hyper child” and all who have children and grandchildren know that there are certain medicines for children, it’s all right, you take them in a bag and give them to the kid. That's what the police really wanted to say, beware that this may have been the cause off... She converts it in a “they accuse me of drugging my daughter; I am not a black widow”. Nobody thinks on that scenario, which is also evident.

CGC : José, I’m very interested in your opinion.
JC : It's exactly as Alfonso is saying, it’s incredible, we can mourn with them, we may what you want, we may be sceptical, we may not, but they are both doctors, they said in their statements, I read them, I was in Lisbon 10 days after all happened because I was called to go to the Portuguese TV, in fact, Portuguese police cowered, that means the entire government Portuguese cowered because there are 400,000 English living in Portugal, that is very important, then of course, what happens here? Must we believe them or not? It’s not about believing them or not, it’s about what they say isn’t consistent with what the police investigated. It’s not consistent.
JB : It should also be noted that the start of the investigation is about an abduction, immediately after the alarm about the disappearance of Madeleine was raised, police began to investigate and arrested Robert Murat, more than 100 English settlers paedophiles in the Algarve were investigated and for three months they only and exclusively follow the path of kidnapping. Until three months later, with the help of British police and also an absolutely essential element here is Mark Harrison, the head of the National Centre for Missing and Child Abuse from United Kingdom who went there, made with Portuguese police a review of the investigation and the English police issued a report that said “you have to change the line of research, that Madeleine may be dead and the parents must be investigated, summing up the issue it says: “This measure seems to be a proportionate and appropriate response to the investigation”. (12)

CGC : Well a lot of attention because tomorrow we have more data. It really has been a very thorough interview and there are very important issues that will continue. Tomorrow we will continue discussing. Thanks’ Jerome, Cristina, José, Alfonso. 



Mariage de Jean 1er du Portugal et de Philippa de Lancastre (1373), alliance que confirma le Traité de Windsor (1386)



(1) Seuls deux des 4 adultes ont trouvé que Gerald MC pourrait être Smithman à 60-80%. En revanche tous ont trouvé une grande ressemblance entre l'enfant et (les photos) de Madeleine.
(2) Cette déclaration est illogique. Par ailleurs, quels sont les "amis" qui ont été maltraités ? Et par qui ? Il est vrai qu'a filtré dans la presse que le signalement de Jane TB n'était guère crédible, mais il est vrai aussi qu'une des raisons ayant incité le procureur de la république à demander une reconstitution est le fameux passage de Jane TB à un mètre de Gerald MC et de Jeremy W sans que ceux-ci la voient.  
(3) La PJ aurait protégé la zone, évidemment, mais quoi faire si des reporters louent à prix d'or une fenêtre surplombant les lieux ou envoient un drone faire des photos ? Le motif "media circus" sonne vraiment creux quand on songe que les MC l'ont suscité (pour la bonne cause évidemment) et vécu avec pendant des mois. 
(4) Trois ans plus tard, on s'attendrait à ce que Kate MC ait enfin compris qu'une reconstitution ne n'est la même chose ni n'a le même objectif qu'une "reconstruction". Il n'en demeure pas moins que le procureur de la république, en édictant une règle incontournable (les TP9+JW doivent être présents, sinon rien ne se fera), ne devait pas s'attendre à obtenir un accord unanime.
(5) Ce n'est pas vrai, mais ce qui est vrai, en revanche, et n'est jamais dit carrément, c'est que les MC, pourtant équippés de téléphones cellulaires, n'ont ni appelé la police, ni demandé qu'on l'appelle. 
(6) Les MC n'avaient pas besoin de refuser pour que la reconstitution ne se fasse pas. Il suffisait d'un membre du groupe, mais personne évidemment n'a voulu assumer seul cette responsabilité, donc ils ont tous saisi le prétexte qu'un autre ne viendrait pas...  Par ailleurs, les MC ne pouvaient décemment dire qu'ils voulaient absolument reconstituer et laisser le reste du groupe rejeter la requête du procureur. Donc ils ont déclaré que reconstituer ne servirait à rien !
(7) Entre le moment où Kate MC a découvert la disparition et le moment où le guardien de l'Ocean Club, à la demande du gérant, a appelé la GNR, à peu près 50 minutes se sont écoulées. Les gendarmes sont arrivés à PDL 20 minutes plus tard.
(8) Deux ans plus tard, ils peuvent feindre d'avoir oublié qu'il ne dépendait que d'eux de faire en sorte que l'instruction se substitue à l'enquête. Ils n'en ont rien fait, sans doute en raison du statut de arguido dont ils voulaient se débarrasser.
(9) Kate MC n'a répondu à aucune des questions que la PJ lui a posées. Une demi-douzaine de ces questions portaient sur ce qu'elle avait vu et fait vers 22h.
(10) Tannerman et Smithman, ravisseurs potentiels, étaient à pied ! Personne n'a jamais imaginé que les MC aient enlevé leur propre enfant.. La nuit où nous l'avons trouvée... Lapsus ?
(11) D'où cela vient-il ? Kate MC n'a jamais parlé à la PJ de médicaments qu'elle aurait donnés à Madeleine. 
(12) Il y a plusieurs confusions ici. Il n'y a pas de National Centre for Missing and Child Abuse, il y avait une institution, le CEOP (Child Exploitation and Online Protection) qui n'existe plus, mais qui n'avait rien à voir avec Mark Harrison. Celui-ci était l'expert en matière de personnes disparues du NPIA, (National Policing Improvment Agency) qui n'existe plus non plus. Totefois ce n'est pas Mark Harrison qui a enjoint d'investiguer les parents, mais le profiler Lee Rainbow, du même NPIA, dans un rapport remis à la PJ en juin 2007.

Deuxième partie - 4 mai
Cette transcription est celle du discours en anglais, et non de la traduction simultanée en espagnol (à part les questions). En raison du doublage et d'une musique d'ambiance, certains passages sont inintelligibles (une note est alors insérée).
transcrit par Nigel Moore


Images rescapées, quoiqu'en piètre condition (l'écran TV a manifestement été filmé par une caméra sans trépied).
 
L'intérêt de ce clip réside dans les dernières et énigmatiques paroles de Gerald MC : C'était particulièrement dur, mais pas aussi violent que la nuit où nous l'avons trouvée.
Interview, section 1:

CGC :
I'd like to ask you two or three questions about doubts in the investigation; I understand that this is a bit painful. It is said that you have not collaborated in a reconstruction of the facts, neither your friends.
GMC : Especially some of our friends, and how we had been treated, they did not feel that the proposed reconstruction, errr... would have any way gone to helping find Madeleine. No one wanted to do anything [unclear] among our friends [unclear]. To do anything it would have been a complete media circus.
KMC : We also asked about the possibility of actors being used, which is obviously what we do in our reconstructions. I mean, certainly in the UK we have a programme called Crimewatch, which uses actors and I think [unclear]. Errm... it's probably detrimental to ask people who have been through something traumatic to live it again.

CGC :
Some tests in the apartment were collected, also in a car that you rented. Do you know something about the results of those tests?
GMC : They essentially didn't demonstrate anything and there were fragments of DNA, which, errr... the senior scientist said came from at least five different people. The report is absolutely clear on this, that none of that... nothing in there, was anything of anything and, errr... [unclear] has said there was blood but they've not identified it as blood.

CGC :
Why do you think that the head of the investigation, Gonçalo Amaral, wants to prove that you are guilty?
GMC : To be honest, I don't even really want to talk about it because you can speculate about his motives. The important thing is that there is no evidence that Madeleine is dead and there's certainly no evidence of any... our involvement in any way. What Mr Amaral's done, and his record, I think speaks for itself.
Interview, section 2:
CGC :
Do you want to reopen the investigation into the case of your daughter Madeleine?
KMC : A little girl is still missing, you know, it's not finished, you know. It's... it's almost like saying, 'Oh well, we'll see what we can find [unclear]' you know.
GMC : And I just think that's unacceptable that, errm... the parents of a missing child are having to drive the investigation.
 

CGC : It made a great impression on me when, at one point, it was said that you had drugged the children, I suppose that that was one of the most serious accusations made against you?
KMC : Well, again, that was a total lie. Errm... It's quite disgraceful, actually that that was ever put into the media and I think it's of interest that, errr... our doctor had never been contacted. I mean, it's a lie. What... I mean, what can I say?
GMC : You know, you can go over lots and lots of things; there were many things that were published. Some could have been made up; some could have come from the Internet. Other people who have gone through terrible tragedies and... and been through similar things. Journalism used to have [unclear], it's now so driven by profit and sensationalism and the ability to print anything, no matter how damaging it is to people.
 

CGC : This is a question for both of you but especially for Kate. Were the interrogations of the Portuguese police particularly hard?
KMC : The questioning was one of those situations that I would never have believed we'd have ever have been in. A man has taken Madeleine and we have to find him and we'll find Madeleine. For people, including the police, to be not looking for that man, but looking at me and Gerry, then it might [unclear] Madeleine.
GMC : Identifying that person is what we have to do at this stage but whoever took Madeleine is still out there, so other children are at risk. And how could we [unclear] at a time when we weren't there, sort of thing. The leaks, smears and lies that were put in the media to try and, errr... convey, errr... an image that we were guilty of our own daughter's disappearance, errm... was particularly hard but the m... it wasn't as bad as the night we found her.