Grâce à la liberté dans les communications, des groupes d’hommes de même nature pourront se réunir et fonder des communautés. Les nations seront dépassées.
Friedrich Nietzsche (Fragments posthumes XIII-883)

10 - MAR 14 - Aled Jones

Dieu est innocent
Good Morning Sunday - BBC Radio 2 - 14.03.2010


Aled Jones : Now, it's almost three years since Kate and Gerry McCann's daughter Madeleine went missing from the holiday apartment in Portugal, where she was on holiday with her family. But Kate McCann's faith has helped her to cope with some of the darkest days. When I met her recently I started by asking her whether Mothering Sunday itself brings up mixed emotions for her?
Kate MC : It does and it doesn't. I mean, every day, to be honest, is... is quite difficult. I guess Mother's Day is another reminder really that Madeleine's not here. You know, I think motherhood is a real gift and obviously I've got three children and it's another reminder that one of my babies isn't with me. But, you know, I'm still Madeleine's mum and I always will be. (1)

AJ : How do you cope with a day like Mothering Sunday?
KMC : Well I guess its a little bit different now really, I think because we're... we're working so hard. Perhaps days where we maybe have done something really special, we don't necessarily; certainly Mothers Day and, I think, birthdays are different - children's birthdays, and things - but I think we just get through it like any other day really.

AJ : Do you get lots of support from family?
KMC : Oh, we've had amazing support. I mean, our family have been great. I think that's an important point really because everybody in our family has suffered, and is going through a lot of pain and anxiety, and we're all missing Madeleine. But we've all gotta try and support each other.

AJ : And what about your other children? How aware are they of what's happening?
KMC : Very aware. They talk about Madeleine every day. They know she's missing; they know she's been taken by somebody. They understand it a little bit like burgalry [sic] in that, even if you really want something, it doesn't mean that we can take it, because Madeleine belongs to us, you know, and it's not right that they've got Madeleine and need to find her. But they talk about finding her, about, you know, finding Madeleine, and running away with her and coming back home and even things like when we go on holiday, they say, "Oh, what will happen if the police find Madeleine and we're not there?", you know, and we say, "Oh, don't worry," you know, "our next door neighbours will let us know." And they're very aware but they're very positive. I mean, they'll always talk about when Madeleine comes home. Sean said to me the other week... well, Amelie said to me, "Why do you work, mummy?" and I said, "Well," you know, "I've gotta find Madeleine." and Sean said, "Yes, mummy, but when that's over; when Madeleine's home, what will you do?", you know, and you think, 'Oh, bring it on', you know.

AJ : Does that help you?
KMC : It does. I mean, they always say, 'Out of the mouths of babes', you know, and, errm... they're really positive and it really does keep us going. I think, you know, in years to come I'll be able to tell Sean and Amelie just, errr... how important they've been, really, in our life; in keeping us going and getting us through it all.

AJ : What effect has... has time had on you? Has time healed at all?
KMC : Yeah, it's always funny that line, isn't it? 'Time's a healer.' I think the wounds are less raw; the pain doesn't go away, and the anxiety is always there. I'm definitely a lot stronger than I was a year ago; which is positive. It's funny because sometimes you beat yourself up about that because, I think, 'How come I'm doing OK?' and 'I'm... I'm coping better than I was?' That's not right because, you know, nothing's changed for Madeleine but, yeah, it's important that I am because, you know, I've got three children; one to look for, and two to look after. Yes, it's important that I can cope.(2)

AJ : Do you feel guilty being happy in a way then?
KMC : Yeah, there is that element. I mean, I know it's okay to be happy, and it's important for Sean and Amelie that we do have happy times, but there is a little bit of guilt really and there's a little bit of discomfort in the... being able to adapt, I guess.

AJ : How important a word is 'hope' for you?
KMC : Oh, very important. I mean, we've obviously got hope; we've got a lot of hope, really; a lot of hope that Madeleine's still alive. Obviously the difficult task is trying to find her. But whilst there's hope we'll keep going. I mean, certainly we'll never give up.

AJ : So what's Madeleine like?
KMC : Oh, in some ways you just want everyone to meet her because, errm... she's just an amazing little character full of personality, loads of energy, quite knowing, errm... really funny and loving and, you know her relationship with Sean and Amelie is incredible really. And thats something that still gets to me at times when I see them playing and then they start talking about Madeleine. Again, you know, we were away and Sean was digging in a sand pit and I said, "What are you doing?" and he said, "Oh, I'm digging up buried treasure, mummy, and I'm going to give it to Madeleine". And you just kind of think, 'What would it be like if the three of them were together?', you know?

AJ : What are some of your most cherished memories?
KMC : Oh God, there's lots. I mean I used to take Madeleine swimming on a Saturday morning and she used to have this really tight swimming cap on and I'd be watching through the glass and she was the youngest there; I mean, she was only three. And she'd just walk along on her own, really confident, and get in, and these huge eyes would be looking at me through the glass and she'd just be waving, you know, "Hello mummy!" I mean, I'd be texting Gerry saying, 'Oh, she's got me crying again!' And just lying with her, you know, and little conversations. You know, I'd... got to the stage where me and Madeleine would go for lunch together, you know, and it felt like a real girl's day out, and...

AJ : I know you are a person of faith which I would like to talk about after we've had some music. I don't know if you listen to music at all.
KMC : No, we do. We listen to a lot of music. Its been a little bit strange to be honest because since Madeleine was taken from us I actually struggled quite a lot to listen to music and I'd... I'd actually put classical music on rather than anything remotely, I guess, happy, you know, with lyrics and stuff; dance type music, anything like that, but gradually I'm able to listen to it again now.

AJ : What would you like to listen to today?
KMC : Chasing Cars by Snow Patrol.
AJ : Why Snow Patrol ?
KMC : Well this is a song that both myself and Gerry really liked and in fact, after Madeleine had gone, it was a song that was quite difficult to listen to, actually. It kind of made us both quite upset because it reminded us of happy times with Madeleine but, at the same time, it reminded us of Madeleine. So, from that point of view, it was quite a special song and I think also the lyrics, you know, "If I just lay here, wouldn't you lie with me?" and Madeleine often used to say at bedtime, "Lie with me, mummy," or "Lie with me, daddy," and, you know, they were really special, vivid moments. (3)


AJ : Snow Patrol there and Chasing Cars. The choice of my guest this morning, Kate McCann. Is every day bad?
KMC : No, not every day's bad. But, its strange, I can have three or four days where, you know, the days just go basically. I'm working; I'm looking after Sean and Amelie; I get through a day; get up; same thing the next day. And then, something can suddenly, out of the blue, just really upset me and it can be something quite innocuous, and it will just trigger something and I guess you're aware that you don't have to scratch too far below the surface for that emotion to come bubbling out. You get through it. I mean, luckily the two of us together are... are quite a unit, really. Usually the one of us can pull the other on up when needs be.

AJ :'And what does it feel like having the world's glare on you?
KMC : Oh, I think you take it for granted really; what being anonymous was like. It's been very hard. I mean, I'm not the most confident person on the planet and I'd never be someone who would get up and give a presentation in work or anything, you know; I'd try and avoid it like the plague. But we've obviously been forced into this situation. (4)

AJ : You've changed a lot as well haven't you? Because in the beginning you were very much in the background...
KMC : Absolutely.
AJ : ...whereas now you're not.
KMC : I think I was... well, obviously, I was going through a lot of pain and distress but also I was just really uncomfortable, as you say, being in the spotlight. And then I had to kind of say to myself, 'Well, why are we doing it?' We are doing it to try and find Madeleine and its not about me. It doesn't matter how uncomfortable I feel, you know, it's Madeleine that we're trying to help and forget about me, you know, move on, get over it, you know.

AJ : Are there times when you don't feel strong?
KMC : Oh yeah, yeah... there are. I mean, there's been a lot of things in the last... almost three years. Errm... not even just Madeleine being taken away from us, which is obviously the worst, but there's been many things that have happened subsequently and they can obviously be really low times, dark times where you... you do doubt your faith, I have to be honest. But, at the same time, it's strange because we've been through that I do believe there's a... a greater good. In some ways it kind of strengthens my faith really.

AJ : Because in a way what you are experiencing for many people would be hell on earth.
KMC : No, it is. I think it is the worst thing that could happen to a parent or certainly one of the worst things. I mean, the pain was just... it's just incredible and it's a pain, you know, the pain of worry, for her, really. I mean, we live with the sadness of not having Madeleine in our lives but, you know, I'm her mum and I can't help but worry about her and I just want to be with her. When she has a sore tummy, I want to be there. When she's upset, I want to be there. And I just want to bring her back into the warmth and love of our family, really.

AJ : Are there ever times when you blame God?
KMC : I've never blamed God for what's happened, at all. I don't think that that was anything to do with God. There are times when I've got angry with God and certainly the... the additional things that I've mentioned that have happened, where I just think, 'How can we have extra suffering put on us, at such an awful time?' And I just haven't understood it, and I've wondered why God hasn't interceded and tried to counter that. These are the times when I go off to church, to be honest. I mean I've got a key to the church; they've kindly given me one and sometimes I'll go in and, oh, its a bit of a sanctuary, its a bit of a refuge really. I'll go and I can speak out because, obviously, there's no-one there. Just get it all of my chest, really. I mean, I do wonder, you know, why should God help my prayers when there's millions of people with prayers which are equally as important around the world. I don't know. I mean, I just hope he does. My faith has sustained me a lot through all of this and there is a definite comfort there.

AJ : Has your faith changed at all?
KMC : I think it's probably got stronger. Definitely. I think, before all this happened, I'd never really had to question my faith. You know, it was there. I believed in God. I had little conversations with God in my head but I'd never really had to challenge it. I was just comfortable with my relationship with my faith, and with God. But it's definitely got stronger now. It's probably more intense. The day I was made arguido was quite an interesting day with regards to my faith. I'd had a period of about four to six weeks prior to that where there'd obviously been a shift in the investigation and suddenly none of the police were talking to us. We couldn't have a meeting, people didn't want to have phone conversations with us and we were left in this awful void of information, really. So we were trying to cope with the pain of not having Madeleine; but also not having any information, at all, and not knowing, at all, what was going on. And then that led into the period were suddenly there were these awful stories coming out in the media about supposed blood in the apartment and basically pointing the finger at us. And then obviously that subsequently finished with us being arguido and the day I was going in for my arguido interview it was quite a strange day because I had been really low and feeling quite weak and fragile, and then suddenly I just felt really strong. I mean, I was angry, I was angry that people hadn't been looking for Madeleine. But also I just thought to myself, 'I know the truth and God knows the truth and nothing else matters'. And I just felt really strong from there, I felt a real inner strength. (5)

AJ : Do you think God's looking after Madeleine?
KMC : I do. I mean, to me, Madeleine was a gift. Most of our life is pretty public anyway but obviously we had quite a difficult time trying to have Madeleine and when she was born I really did believe she was a gift and I never took her for granted... You know, every day when I'd wake up and I'd see her, these huge eyes looking at me, you know, I'd thank God for Madeleine and I don't believe that He would stop loving her now or abandon her, I mean, I don't believe that at all and I do get a comfort in thinking that wherever she... she is; whoever she's with, that He's with her and protecting her, and protecting her spirit. She's got a lot of spirit.'' (6)

AJ : Do you find that your prayers have changed over the years?
KMC : I guess they're a little bit more, errr... directed now. The prayer that I used to say all the time was, 'To... to keep my family, thank God for my family and to keep Gerry, Madeleine, Sean and Amelie safe, healthy and happy'. I always said that. Which, when it happened, to be honest, was a little bit of a... a struggle because that was the one prayer that I said all the time. You know, I pray for lots of things now, really. Obviously I always pray for the family; obviously most of the prayers are centred on Madeleine, really. But I pray for the people who have taken Madeleine, the people who know whats happened to Madeleine and the people around... related to the person who's taken Madeleine. I pray for the police and the investigators; people who are looking for her; and I pray for all the other children who are missing, or have been exploited in some way. Because in some ways... ehhh... it's funny to say lucky, but we have been lucky - we've had a lot of support from the general public, in particular people we don't know. I mean, we've had incredible support and there's many families out there whose children have gone missing and, you know, you don't hear about it.

AJ : Gerry said that his faith has been strengthened by the goodness generated by this ordeal. So there are positives that come out of it?
KMC : Oh, very much so. I mean we... we still get a bundle of mail every day from people, you know, willing us on and, you know, sending their best wishes. And children send pictures for Madeleine and stuff; you know, we have books of prayers sent for Madeleine that children have written. Its been amazing, its been a real eye-opener. I mean, I'd have never thought of sitting down and writing a letter to somebody I didn't know who'd suffered a tragic event and yet the strength it's give us has been amazing.

AJ : You know, it would be understandable for you to be filled with hate and anger and rage and you're not at all?
KMC : I've had my moments. If I went back to 2008, I think I did probably have a lot of anger on board and it's such a horrible negative emotion. I'm pleased to say that that anger has gone now. I feel so much better than I did in 2008.

AJ : Do you think you'd ever be able to forgive the people that took Madeleine?
KMC : It's a difficult one, isn't it. I guess, I don't know why they've taken her and I think until I know that it would be hard... hard to say. I mean, I'd like to hope that I could but its difficult.

AJ : On Mothering Sunday, errr... do you have a message for other mothers who are maybe experiencing similar emotions to what you are going through?
KMC :Yeah, I think, errm... dig deep really, just keep hoping and lean on your family and friends really. Gather their love, surround yourself with positive people but don't give up.

AJ : Thank you so much for talking to me.
KM: Thank you.

 (1) Kate peut dire je suis la mère de Madeleine, mais pourrait-elle dire de Madeleine c'est ma fille ?
 (2) Les bonnes paroles d'Alan Pike ont été effectives.
 (3) depuis que Madeleine est partie... est connoté en raison de la métaphore partir/mourir.
 (4) Ils n'ont pas été forcés, non. Courtiser les médias fut leur choix.
 (5) La peine de ne pas avoir Madeleine est certainement immense, mais on entend moins parler de celle de Madeleine, arrachée aux siens. Est-ce parce que cette peine-là est incommensurable ?
 (6) Madeleine est un don de Dieu, assisté par la FIV.  Ses parents l'ont laissée tomber (paroles de Kate MC dans la nuit du 3/4 mai) et la police s'est carrément débarrassée d'elle en la proclamant morte, mais Dieu ne peut l'avoir abandonnée. La foi peut réellement renverser des montagnes !